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Offline providence13

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cantrips
« on: June 19, 2009, 08:39:33 AM »
This could have been covered already and if so, thanks for your patience. ;D

With the ability to wield staggering control over Essence/Channeling/Mentalism, pure casters had to start somewhere.
In another, simpler, older RPG, casters had access to cantrips; 0 lvl spells.

Now, some would say that the old games cantrips are RM's 1st lvl spells and I wouldn't totally disagree. But I'm thinking of some pre-1st lvl practice spells that pure users of RM don't even spend PP to cast. Maybe just a roll.

If 1.Enchanted Rope (Earth Law) is assumed to be years of practice/concentration of will etc, what came before that? My idea is that they probably started with string. Maybe it doesn't work if someone else is holding/wearing it. No, I tie his shoe laces together; or you could with say a -20 penalty +1/lvl of caster if the opponent had to save/resist. This spell could help tie your shoes or purse strings, "jingle"your fishing line (+5 to fishing!) etc.
 
A first lvl spell should always supersede a cantrip IMO, so a 1.Resist Light would always protect vs. a 0.Blue Light (Light Law) if used to try and confuse/disorient an opponents vision with a soft light that is just bright enough to read by. Or, if you went a different way...
0.Static Shock (Light Law) used to shoo away normal pests; rats or overeager puppies eyeing your spell books, would even be canceled by a 1.Prayer I (Protections).

Self Healing could help reduce scarring at 0 lvl but no more than good olive oil (this does work) applied every day for a month or two; just a bit faster, like every day for a week. Or 0.Set to help immobilize sprains/mild fractures to help with healing by not causing more damage.

Telekinesis could have 0.Push/Pull/Stay that only works for a few ounces- and only across surfaces, not floating.

0.Tender (Fire Law) could do the same as a flint & steel, if you had none...

0.Dust Devil (Wind Law) could sweep the floor or help clear a specific small area of the air, blow out candles, but not 1/2 as much as 1.Breezes.

GM would, of course have total say so of what is/not allowed. But it could give those low level mages a bit of confidence to be able to do "something" that won't cause an aneurysm if they happen to roll really bad. 

What do ya think?

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Offline Arioch

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Re: cantrips
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2009, 09:04:03 AM »
It's a nice idea but IMHO it makes 1st level spell even less powerful than what they're now... and how do you learn a 0 level spell?
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Offline providence13

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Re: cantrips
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2009, 09:45:32 AM »
Thanks Arioch, I appreciate the feedback!

For me, I like the idea that RM treats spell lists as a natural progression on similar themes.
My interest is in what came before 1st lvl.

If a PC has many ranks in 1-H Edge, then they can likely sharpen their sword and keep it from rusting. IMO, these minor skills are implied.
Having Basket Weaving doesn't mean you have to make a roll to pick quality reeds; hopefully. Again, some things are assumed to be learned as basics to the skill/profession.

With that said, before a mage can make a light, perhaps he can make a "glow".
Before you can move 16 oz with Telekinesis, maybe you start with 1 oz finally working up to 4 oz.

A GM can always say, no. They can also require that the exact "training spells" be written down and cannot be changed. To be really crazy, it could be a case by case approach, malleable 0 lvl spells! But that may really detract from 1st lvl spells, I agree.

In a high magic campaign, I see a caster that can "tag, your it" someone their looking at, without actually spending a power point. Heck, many people say that they can feel when someone is staring at them.
I'm talking really minor here. Could be even 1/4  of a 1st lvl spell. Maybe cantrips require a round of concentration; or even 3! ;)
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Offline damilano

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Re: cantrips
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2009, 10:59:19 AM »
Hello, friends!

I like this idea of cantrips -- miniscule and harmless magics, little more than tricks, really -- that a youngling MU can have already in his bag.  They'd be acquired outside of his classical training, and would have served to help him build confidence and remain interested in exacting and disciplined magical studies.

Take a young musician, for example.  Sure, he's studied his scales and arpeggios; he can read a score; he's memorized some really good recital pieces; and he understands what good technique is and how to acquire it.  But he still knows (and plays) the dozen or so songs or solos that he learned for fun as a beginner; some of these are what got him into the serious study of music in the first place.  Hey, they're not Paganini sonatas, but they're pretty neat and fun to listen to.  They're the ones he plays at parties, the ones that get him girls.

They're cantrips.

These could be a great way to make first-level magic users more appealing to players:

Gamemaster:  "In addition to the spell lists you learn (or fail to learn), you can choose a number of cantrips equal to your prime requisite magic stat divided by 15 (since you're a pure spell user; hybrids, divide by 25 and semis get none).  For you, that'd be a total of 6."

Potential MU:  "What's a cantrip?"

Gamemaster: "Well, take a young musician, for example..."  Ya da ya da ya da.

Potential MU:  "What do they do?"

Gamemaster: "Well, they're miniscule and harmless magics, little more than tricks..." Ya da ya da ya da.

Potential MU: "How many power points does it take to cast them?"

Gamemaster: "None.  They're level 0."

Potential MU: "Neat!  And how often can I cast them?"

Gamemaster: "At will, as long as you can satisfy the verbal, gestural, and concentration requirements.  They're all considered Class III spells at first level."

Potential MU:  "That's wicked!  How many do I get again, and where's the list?"

Just imagine the flavor this could inject into a campaign.  Impressing ill-willed local folk and ignorant monsters, adding to leadership and influence rolls, creating diversions.  And who knows?  For a MU whose party is just about killed off, and who's at the bottom of, say, a pit, a cantrip and some creativity could save the day!

Guaranteed you'd get no objections from the players.  Imagine their wide-eyed first-level satisfaction to hear some comely damsel exclaim,

"Upon my word!  How'd you DO that?"

After all, isn't it THEM, the players, that it's really all about, and their loud and oft-expressed view that you're a freakin' creative genius, and the best GM that ever put mechanical pencil to hex paper?  Uh... let me think for a minute... umm... Yeah, that IS what it's all about.

How about some ideas from the crowd out there?  Here's a few off the top of my head.  Forgive the corny names, just my homage to Gary G. and his wonderful Cantrips idea way back when (if it really WAS his idea).


1.  Fobblewaith's Phony Footfalls:  Makes one hearer believe he hears heavy booted feet coming up behind him.

2.  Ignacius' Irritating Itch:  Target gets a sudden annoying itch in some hard to reach place.

3.  Caedmon's Colorful Campfire:  Turns flames red, blue, and green for a short period.

4.  Holban's Hazy Halo:  Uses the smoke and dust in a room to create a strange and sorcerous halo behind the caster's head.

5.  Smard's Smoky Sculptures:  From fat smoke rings to sailing ships flying through them, astonishing shapes emerge from the caster's exhaled pipe (or merrig cigarette) smoke.

6.  Vasmajian's Voice:  Normal barn animals become animated commentators with this simple ventriloquistic cantrip: good for one sentence only.

7.  Shelby's Shuffle:  Teleport 2 feet to the left and then back again 2 seconds later.

8.  Pollacks Pouffy Do:  Caster's hair stands on end (or pouffs into a 'fro, perm, or other weird hairstyle) for a few seconds.

9.  Magic Maw:  Caster's mouth seems twice its normal size for a moment.

10.  Sondar's Silly String:  Caster pulls an enormously long string (say 20') from his mouth, through his ears, up one nostril and out the other... 'nuff said.

Yes, some will say this takes away from low-level spells.  To which my reply would be,

"Yeah... and?"

Let's face it.  First level spells aren't all that great, and they're really not exciting even to first level players.  I haven't played as much as some of you other guys, but wouldn't you agree that players tend to choose Arms or Semi-spell characters more than Pures?  And when they do, that they aren't in the action as much as they'd like?  And wouldn't you agree that's a bit of a shame, with a spell system as excellent as Spell Law?

Anything balanced to get player buy-in on magic, says I.

I'm seriously considering adding cantrips to my game.  If anyone can direct me to a good, lengthy list of such interesting cantrips, please do!  And please, let's hear your opinions!




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Offline Arioch

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Re: cantrips
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2009, 11:10:00 AM »
Quote
They're all considered Class III spells at first level.

Class III? I think you're talking about RMC rules, aren't you?  ;)

Let's face it.  First level spells aren't all that great, and they're really not exciting even to first level players.

Yes, but first level characters aren't limited to first level spells!


Maybe an idea could be making Cantrips a single skill, like in HARP?
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline damilano

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Re: cantrips
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2009, 11:26:47 AM »
Quote
Yes, but first level characters aren't limited to first level spells!

I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but in RM2 (which is nearly the same as RMC, isn't it?  I haven't read it) a spell is class III if it requires two preparation rounds before casting.  This is my way of reflecting that cantrips are beginner stuff, and of limiting their 'rapid-fire misuse'.  Sorry, I thought that was tacit.

And to quote myself:

Let's face it.  First level spells aren't all that great, and they're really not exciting even to first level players.

No, of course first level characters aren't limited to first level spells, at least not in my game, which allows a caster to cast any spell he knows provided he has the requisite power points or a usable spell adder.  I don't believe I asserted that spells higher than first level were off limits to first level characters. 

My point was that the first level spells aren't interesting or exciting.  And with one or two power points, you're not even going to able to cast those very often.  Sorry again, I assumed that would be understood.

CMC
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Offline Arioch

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Re: cantrips
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2009, 11:34:41 AM »
Quote
Yes, but first level characters aren't limited to first level spells!

I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but in RM2 (which is nearly the same as RMC, isn't it?  I haven't read it) a spell is class III if it requires two preparation rounds before casting.

Yes, but this is the RMSS/FRP board...
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Offline damilano

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Re: cantrips
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2009, 11:37:54 AM »
(chuckling)

Yes, but this is where the lively (and active) discussion on... um, cantrips... is.

I simply assumed that the posters here would be familiar enough with the various systems to know what I was talking about.  Thank you for clarifying for the benefit of those who don't.

CMC
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: cantrips
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2009, 02:24:52 PM »
Look at the Prosaic list, found in the old RM2 Spell Users Companion.  Many of those list are perfect examples of what spell users might master before being allowed/able to master open, base and closed list.

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Offline damilano

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Re: cantrips
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2009, 02:42:19 PM »
Hmmm.  Will have to check that out!
What do you mean, you didn't buy the Perception skill?

Offline markc

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Re: cantrips
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2009, 03:03:22 PM »
Look at the Prosaic list, found in the old RM2 Spell Users Companion.  Many of those list are perfect examples of what spell users might master before being allowed/able to master open, base and closed list.



 Yamma beat me to the SUC reference. But in general I like the idea as well as maybe porting the cantrip idea from HARP to a RM based system.

MDC
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Offline Elton Robb

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Re: cantrips
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2009, 08:13:36 PM »
Hello, friends!

I'm seriously considering adding cantrips to my game.  If anyone can direct me to a good, lengthy list of such interesting cantrips, please do!  And please, let's hear your opinions!

Uh . . . Prosaic lists?
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Offline markc

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Re: cantrips
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2009, 08:31:50 PM »
Hello, friends!

I'm seriously considering adding cantrips to my game.  If anyone can direct me to a good, lengthy list of such interesting cantrips, please do!  And please, let's hear your opinions!

Uh . . . Prosaic lists?


 Prosaic spell lists from the RM2 Spell Users Companion  were spell lists designed to inter work with specific professions. So there was a bakers list, a metal workers list etc. I liked most of them but I thought that the cost should have been less for the spells. Like I said I like the way HARP deals with cantrips and IMO something like that would be great for my game.

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Offline providence13

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Re: cantrips
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2009, 11:09:18 PM »
Thanks everyone!
Pretty good ideas, all. The games I've been in sound a bit rougher than most people's here...

I flubbed a 1st lvl spell as a 1st lvl Mage and took hits/passed out! I can't use weapons or armor and I only pose a threat to myself.. I thought "In a world this dangerous, how could anyone study hard enough to learn magic?" Everyone messes up once in their life! The attrition rate would be pretty high.. ::) "Father, I'm joining the Priesthood and moving to the Monastery." Mother: starts crying and moaning about "the neighbors' poor child who joined the convent and her head exploded; it took 3 days to clean the mess..Father: I'll not let you kill yerself son".... you get the point. Ist lvl spells are lethal until the caster reaches 2nd lvl and dangerous until 3rd! Throw the caster a bone and give them something to do. :)

Arioch, I think there are enough skills already..haha! But if you wanted a skill based 0 lvl magic system, using the rank bonus the caster has in that list could be a % or if you really want to get RM technical, use Spell Mastery for that list. Your understanding of this List had to start somewhere, (0 lvl) that's when you began learning how to master these forces..0lvl spells...
And don't chase off people who want to talk about it! ;D

Damilano, I agree that engaging the players IS one of the reasons everyone is gaming. Issues that frustrated me, as a player, will likely (and have) frustrated my players.
Also, I remember an old article "Magic for Merchants" I'll have to dig up..(Best of Dragon V?), sounds like the Prosaic List; but I want to check that out too.

The more I think about it.. it doesn't really detract from 1st level spells at all..only gives you more freedom. GM:"You find a rusty sword in the 200 yr old tomb but strangely, it doesn't appear corroded."  Fighter: "Right, Tim can you clean this up a bit?" Magician: (looking at the sword as if he's pondering a chess move, then gently rubs the rust away). There are Runes here! Ok, it's time for a real spell.."
And remember, "a 1st lvl spell should always supersede a cantrip."
 I do like the idea of choosing one (or 2, 3) cantrip/spell List and that simis get none. I guess that would make my "Magic for Merchants" hybrids. :)

Thanks everyone. Anyone else, please chime in! I'll try to dig up some old cantrip descriptions.
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Offline markc

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Re: cantrips
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2009, 12:30:26 AM »
 If anyone has a chance I would suggest that you do take a look at the SUC if you have it or know someone who has it. The prosaic spells are fairly unique. If you are looking for something close to it you can look in the RMSS Ess Comp and RMSS Ment Comp at TP spell lists. The ones that standout to me right now are the seaman, physician, beast master and the list in the Ess Comp that is for scribes. They all are fairly basic except the beast master spell list IMO and most could have quite a few of the spells be at a lower rank.

 Maybe have a group of spells that you have to buy into the list first and then you pay a reduced price for the spells of that rank. So the 1 "tier" of the forging list might include clean, minor repair, determine metal, mend forge, mend forge tools etc. Then you could have a "5th tier" that costs X DP to join and you have to be 5th level of have 5 ranks in a number of skills. These spells would be more powerful than the "1st tier" so  maybe they would be hold heat constant, work iron, make nail etc.

 I think it needs some work but my brain is not working well right now. So I will give it another go tomorrow if I have the time.

MDC
   
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: cantrips
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2009, 03:51:11 PM »
I flubbed a 1st lvl spell as a 1st lvl Mage and took hits/passed out! I can't use weapons or armor and I only pose a threat to myself.. I thought "In a world this dangerous, how could anyone study hard enough to learn magic?"

My immediate response to this is: That is why you don't go adventuring at 1st level. I firmly believe that the first 2 or 3 levels are for your younger, training days - i.e. while you are still "in school". Maybe even up to 4th level.

We need to remember that in RM there is no max level, you can keep going, and going, and going until you are stopped. (Anyone seen the levels of the NPCs in Shadow World recently?) Another thing telling me this is, because this game is so skill oriented, and that there are alot of skills, means that you need to develop quite a few different skills - even as a fighter - in order to be fleshed out/skilled enough to represent your profession in a competant manner. The idea that a +50 is fully professional needs to be thrown out the window. If you failed at your job at work anywhere close to 50% of the time you would be canned. And a +50 means more than 50% - yes, you can do things to add to your bonus/lessen the difficulty, but then there are plenty of things that do just the opposite, too.

I mean, yes, the numbers sem to indicate certain things but in reality they don't. That 20th level peasant-farmer will generally get the floor taken out from under him by that 10th level fighter, because he hasn't trained nearly as much in combat oriented skills and probably has fewer hits as well. What it means to be a 20th level farmer is that he is a a very skilled farmer, probably the one many classify as the most capable in the area, and the one they come to for answers - about farming. It doesn't mean that he can beat up every adventurer that comes along, though they might want to think of him as an excellent source of info about the area.

Sorry, turning off rant mode now.  :o

So, for me, the first few levels of spells are the cantrips.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: cantrips
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2009, 05:26:02 PM »
A 20th level farmer may have more Body Development than the 10th level Fighter, though. If he has weapons skills to stand against the Fighter, it will be because he lives in dangerous territory and does weapons training. He may have seen more combat than the Fighter in that case. But he's more likely just got a lot of skills. After all, when you live on a farm, you need to be able to make and repair a lot of different things, just to start with. Other skills will help you get a good price for your crop and even anticipate what would be a good item to grow for taking to market. Then he'll want to be able to predict the weather and handle animals. When you have to make your own fun, you usually learn at least a little of the entertainment skills, so you can sing or amuse the children with your stories. Plenty of stuff to spend DPs on.
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Offline markc

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Re: cantrips
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2009, 05:33:21 PM »
 Boy cantrips to 20th level farmers what a swing.
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Offline providence13

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Re: cantrips
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2009, 11:20:03 PM »
I have not seen the SUC, but I'll be on the lookout for it!
 MDC, if you mean the 0 lvl spells should have tiers... That's not what I'm after. For me, Cantrips are the lowest tier there is.
 IMHO.....A Fighter can sharpen his sword, a Mage can cast cantrips. No DP needed.
If a Fighter wants to take Blacksmithing or Metal Lore in order to do more.. DP are spent to buy the ranks.
If a Mage wants to improve Cantrips,... well, they're called 1st lvl spells! :) DP are spent to buy ranks.

Farmer Cantrips... Sweet Clover- keeps cows still while milking.
                         Push Nail- Push a nail in wood/hove as hammer.
                         Seed- Scatters seeds or throws them in a straight line; also good for feeding chickens.
                         Mend- Only as much repair as a needle and thread.
                         Mole Bane-  keeps mole from entering garden for a few days.
This farmer lives on a mana line nexus point and talks of long ago history as if he was really there.. Sorry, it's hard to turn that off. :P
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: cantrips
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2009, 11:23:52 PM »
Boy cantrips to 20th level farmers what a swing.
MDC

You should see how it goes in my head before I edit myself. Or, maybe you shouldn't.  :o
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