Author Topic: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list  (Read 6185 times)

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Offline dutch206

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Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« on: June 20, 2009, 02:17:10 PM »
This is just my brain wandering down random pathways, which happens quite a bit these days.  ???

It seems to me that the "Light Law" spell list is lacking a strong central concept like the other Elemental spell lists have.  I know I am treading on thirty plus years of RM tradition here, but I beleive this spell list needs a redesign.  (No, I am not volunteering.  I'm just saying.)

"Light Law" is a jumble of spells dealing with illumination, darkness, and electricity.  The need for the inclusion of darkness spells was made irrelevant with the addition of EA9's "Dark Law", IMHO.  That leaves the spell list with a simple identity crisis:  Is this a spell list about illumination, or is it a spell list about electricity?

In my opinion, the electricity spells should be moved to Wind Law, because electricity in nature mostly comes from thunderstorms.  Wind Law allready has spells dealing with weather, so the electricity spells would fit in nicely.

So, what to do with Light Law?  I suggest we either replace it with the RoCo V arcane "Light" list, or replace it with something similar to the Open Channeling and Mentalism "Light" spell lists.

Ideas, thoughts, or suggestions?  I'd really like to hear them.  We have a lot of brain power hidden away in these forums.
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Offline mibsweden

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Re: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2009, 02:59:06 PM »
I remember someone doing an article with a revised Light Law in the Guild Companion. It had Lightning Nova, Lightning Ball as well I think and Chain Lightning. Also I think it had some Lightning Blade.

It was a nice mix of influences from Diablo II, Fire Law and Mana Fires.

If you take Lightning and move it to Wind Law, I think Light Law would end a very weak spell list. Also I think Wind Law is already quite good, maybe not as good as Fire Law or Light Law on attack spells, but still good.

When it comes to Darkness spells, I think you should not adapt the core rules spell lists to accompany for a spell list in an optional supplement.

I could see a Dark Law spell list for Magicians, and Light Law and maybe Electricity Law? Just putting things out there now... :)
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2009, 03:21:47 PM »
elemental light attacks?  Laser beams!!!! (i.e. Shock/Lightning bolt with Heat(primary)/Puncture(secondary) crits)  ;D

Sudden Light (area attacks leaves foes blinded!)

Daylight (not good for those pesky undead)

Lightbending an alternative version of invisibility


Offline RandalThor

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Re: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2009, 03:31:49 PM »
elemental light attacks?  Laser beams!!!! (i.e. Shock/Lightning bolt with Heat(primary)/Puncture(secondary) crits)  ;D

Now where did I put my sharks.............
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Offline markc

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Re: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2009, 05:30:08 PM »
 I think why the electric attacks are there is because people way back then might have thought that electricity came from light. But I could be wrong and the original designers of the spell list might have just been dividing up spells from D&D to fit in the RM org chart.
 IMO now I would think that laser light would be more appropriate but it also need another name so as to not sound too modern. Maybe elemental light bolt or just light bolt. You could also increase the damage potential by its color that would be available at higher ranks.

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Offline providence13

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Re: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2009, 12:23:26 AM »
Light Law could also use a Deflection (mirror), Prism (change ambient light to whatever color you want; help hide/pick out details) Blur and Lens spells. Of course, at higher levels the dreaded Fresnel Lens!!

On the other end of the spectrum ( ;)) Shock Mastery!
...this might be in Elemental Companion...
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2009, 03:05:26 AM »
Actually, they would have tended to think of lightning as fire, at least if they were educated enough to have some familiarity with classical elemental theory. Light and lightning as one thing is a Rolemaster thing. Obviously, the physics of the Rolemaster universe are different. Maybe light and electricity being the same element has something to do with why magic works?
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Offline Dark Schneider

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Re: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2009, 04:03:06 AM »
As you say, are different concepts, light is interaction with photon particles and electricity is electron energy transfer, but I think the joint reason is for:

1) It is supposed to play RM with no more books, so we have no all those lists in companions. So we need to insert electricity attacks in somewhere for main game.

2) It is supposed a magician should create all elemental attacks, then it is needed a place for it, 'light law' was selected.

Maybe it should be more correct to use the 'wind law', unfortunately the current 'wind law' has no blank space for it.
You could modify the 'wind law' to insert the shock/lightning bolts as in 'light law', removing/reordering some spells in the current 'wind law' spell list, and then modify the 'light law' using the same bolts but with heat criticals as metioned before. But as you can see it is not trivial.

But, if you want an explanation for using electricity attacks in light law, so there is no need to modify all that, think that light can produce electricity, look at solar energy, then a shock/lightning bolt could be interpreted like accumulate light in one point, convert it into electricity energy, and launch it in bolt form, as this conversion is possible (light -> electricity).

----------------------------------------------------------

There is another bolt that should be changed definitely, the ice bolt, with the current description I see it as if we take an ice piece of our freezer and throw it to target, for that it uses impact criticals, IMO that interpretation is wrong.

I see the ice bolt like a condensed cold, it has no mass (it can be ignored) like the fire or light bolts, so it should use cold and not impact criticals. Like cold criticals are better than impact (if I remember well) and the bolt has no mass, then secondary critical should be removed.

So, the ice bolt is like the fire bolt but does cold criticals, I think this is the correct interpretation.

Offline dutch206

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Re: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2009, 08:25:45 AM »
elemental light attacks?  Laser beams!!!! (i.e. Shock/Lightning bolt with Heat(primary)/Puncture(secondary) crits)  ;D

Sudden Light (area attacks leaves foes blinded!)

Daylight (not good for those pesky undead)

Lightbending an alternative version of invisibility



I was actually thinking along the laser bolt line myself.  A laser is, after all, nothing but amplified light.

I think of the "sudden light" spell as having someone take your picture in a dark room.  When the flash goes off, you can't see right for quite some time.

The "Daylight" spell would definitely help for parties without access to a cleric.

For light bending, how about the "conceal" spells?  Not invisibility, but a chance that an attack will miss you x% of the time.

re:  Fresnel Lens.  Light Law allready has a spell which allows lighthouse-like illumination.
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Offline Nders

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Re: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2009, 08:48:50 AM »
Quote
There is another bolt that should be changed definitely, the ice bolt, with the current description I see it as if we take an ice piece of our freezer and throw it to target, for that it uses impact criticals, IMO that interpretation is wrong.

I see the ice bolt like a condensed cold, it has no mass (it can be ignored) like the fire or light bolts, so it should use cold and not impact criticals. Like cold criticals are better than impact (if I remember well) and the bolt has no mass, then secondary critical should be removed.

So, the ice bolt is like the fire bolt but does cold criticals, I think this is the correct interpretation.

There really is no room for interpretation here. The ice bolt is a shard of ice and has a mass. You can invent a cold bolt if you like (water bolt attack table - and level - with cold crits) but it would be silly to tamper with the ice bolt. Changing the critical from impact to cold is a significant downgrade, you can be resistant or immune to cold not to impact, and removing the secondary crit entirely is even worse taking away the most powerful single target attack spell the magician has until level 10.

Concerning the idea of putting daylight spells for combating undead on a re-edittion: I don't like it  :-\ there is no mention of undeads having a problem with any form of light in creatures and treasures. There are exceptions I know but they are few and the light spells for harming them is covered by the utterlight spell.

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2009, 05:51:43 AM »
Considering how electricity/thunder would fall under a "Wood Law" under the appropriate elemental theory, I'd say that putting it in a "Light Law" is just as appropriate.
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Offline dutch206

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Re: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2009, 08:56:08 AM »
I suppose we could take the D&D route (*GASP*) and re-define the elements as "Fire, Ice, Electricity, Acid, and Sonic".  ;D

Actually, OLF, adding thunder spells that do sonic damage isn't such a bad idea...  Of course, it wouldn't work on creatures who were constructs, undead, deaf or didn't have ears.
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Offline Elton Robb

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Re: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2009, 10:18:26 AM »
I suppose we could take the D&D route (*GASP*) and re-define the elements as "Fire, Ice, Electricity, Acid, and Sonic".  ;D

Actually, OLF, adding thunder spells that do sonic damage isn't such a bad idea...  Of course, it wouldn't work on creatures who were constructs, undead, deaf or didn't have ears.

Not true.  A SASER weapon, essentially a weapon that amplifies ultrasonic sound waves and focuses them, can cause impact damage to the body.  IF you watched the new Incredible Hulk, they have some good examples of a SASER type weapon.

So a spell like: Sound Bolt -- would be like firebolt but does impact critical strikes.
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Offline providence13

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Re: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2009, 10:53:45 AM »
Elton, I believe that hypersonic weapons would do the trick!
Here is a nonlethal link.
http://www.bestofyoutube.com/story.php?title=hypersonic-sound-future-weapons
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Offline Elton Robb

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Re: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2009, 11:07:55 AM »
Well, it doesn't move air.  perfect!
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Offline markc

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Re: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2009, 02:45:20 PM »
 Most sonic weapons I have seen produce heat as a side effect. I have not seen any that do impact damage but then I have not been looking at those weapons in a while.
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Offline providence13

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Re: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2009, 07:46:09 PM »
MDC, Check out my link :)

This unit is a freakin' flat panel speaker. Doesn't seem to get very hot. The weapon application is implied. ;)

I was looking for the hypersonic bazooka thingy... couldn't find it. Very specific targets... kinda like they used against the Hulk.. :D
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2009, 07:51:02 PM »
I suppose we could take the D&D route (*GASP*) and re-define the elements as "Fire, Ice, Electricity, Acid, and Sonic".  ;D

So D&D considers cartoon hedgehogs an element? That's stranger that I'd realized they'd gotten.

Quote
Actually, OLF, adding thunder spells that do sonic damage isn't such a bad idea...  Of course, it wouldn't work on creatures who were constructs, undead, deaf or didn't have ears.

Illusionist has Sudden Sound and Ultrasonics spells. I believe there are a few others. For Magician, they'd belong on Wind Law, which is already a plenty full list with good offensive power. Frankly, a Vacuum spell is going to sound enough like a thunderclap that "Thunder" would probably be a perfectly good renaming, at least for storm-themed mages.
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Offline Dark Schneider

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Re: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2009, 07:37:48 AM »
Quote
There really is no room for interpretation here. The ice bolt is a shard of ice and has a mass. You can invent a cold bolt if you like (water bolt attack table - and level - with cold crits) but it would be silly to tamper with the ice bolt.

I think that could be the original idea, I say this after seeing some points:

1) New Combat Companion uses cold criticals for 'ice bolt'.
2) Impact critical is overused in spell law.
3) Cold critical is underused in spell law.
4) There is no way to do D or E cold criticals with usual attacks, only with UMRs.
5) Any other spell in 'ice law' spell lists uses cold criticals, why 'ice bolt' one not?.

So IMO the original 'ice bolt' could be the 'cold bolt', but I see no problem in call it 'ice bolt' as it can have frost form and 'explode' at target.

Quote
Changing the critical from impact to cold is a significant downgrade, you can be resistant or immune to cold not to impact, and removing the secondary crit entirely is even worse

I don't think so, you can be resistant to impact (a slime?), so resistance is not in this question. A main clod critical is better than impact+cold because you can use it only with F or G criticals, rare, and the cold critical is better than the impact one for a simple point, bleeding.

I see the current 'ice bolt' out of normal, while each 'elemental bolt' do its respective elemental damage, the ice bolt is the exception, doing impact damage mainly.

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Discussion for all RM Versions. RE: "Light Law" spell list
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2009, 07:49:25 AM »
5) Any other spell in 'ice law' spell lists uses cold criticals, why 'ice bolt' one not?.
RM2's ice bolt is Impact/Cold (primary critical/secondary critical).

Quote
I see the current 'ice bolt' out of normal, while each 'elemental bolt' do its respective elemental damage, the ice bolt is the exception, doing impact damage mainly.
If I hit you with a club made of ice, I'm pretty sure you'd feel the impacting effect before feeling the cold (if you even feel it). :)

The problem with a cold-only based bolt is that there's no such thing/energy as "cold", cold being an absence of heat. Technically, a "cold bolt" would be a ray sucking out heat off its victim.

...oh wait, I guess it may work.

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