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Offline craggles

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Shadow World Canon Books
« on: February 08, 2010, 02:49:00 PM »
These are the Shadow World Canon books (as listed by Matt elsewhere in the forums) -

Quote
World
o   Shadow World Master Atlases, Editions I – IV
o   Master Atlas Addendum (from Emer box set)
o   Powers of Light & Dark

Jaiman
o   The Iron Wind
o   The Cloudlords of Tanara (Editions I and II)
o   Jaiman: Land of Twilight
o   Quellbourne: Land of the Silver Mist*
o   Norek: Intrigue in a City-State of Jaiman*
o   Haalkitaine And the Imperial Court of Rhakhaan
o   The Land of Xa-ar and Northern Saralis
o   Watchtowers of U-Lyshak (free pdf download)
o   Rose Petals and Snow Lions (from The Guild Adventurer #2)
o   The Keeper of the Thorn (from The Guild Adventurer #3)

Emer
o   The World of Vog Mur*
o   Emer (from Emer box set)
o   Eidolon: City in the Sky
o   Curse of the White Wood (free download)
o   Dagger of Jade (from White Wolf #25)
o   Emer Book I: Hæstra And the History of the Emerian Empire
o   Emer Book II: The Northeast
o   Temple of the Three (from The Guild Adventurer #1)

Other
o   The Grand Campaign
o   The Shadowstone Chronicles

My question is mainly to Terry and Matt but also anyone who might know -
Why are the other books not considered canon?

I have several of them as it happens (through bad luck) and some of the smaller ones seem to be just a collection of small adventures (like Tales of the Loremasters II and The Cyclop's Vale) or not occurring in the 2 main continents of Jaiman and Emer (Like the Nomads of the Nine Nations and the Kingdom of the Desert Jewel which are both set in Thuul). I don't have it but the Star Crown Empire is set in Govon which is also out of the 2 main continents.

Is there anything that's correct in these non-canon books that we can salvage (like cultures, races, customs, creatures, cities, temples etc) or is it all wrong? Presumably, there will be more Shadow World adventures set elsewhere on Kulthea that will replace any info mentioned in the un-canon books?

Although after skimming through the Emer books I and II, I'm eager to finish the Emer quartet before moving to other continents for adventures... but then there's always going to be an issue of not enough time in the day to write everything unfortunately! :)
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Offline markc

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Re: Shadow World Canon Books
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2010, 04:04:20 PM »
 I am going to guess but I think they were not written or supervised by Terry. So the authors could do pretty much anything they wanted to sell adventure modules and not have to worry about the over all story of the world.

 A side question what are the * for above?
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Shadow World Canon Books
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2010, 04:06:02 PM »
Again AFIK as you, but I think those were noted in the original post as "not written by Terry, but approved as canon anyway". But I'm not 100% certain.
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Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: Shadow World Canon Books
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2010, 04:13:35 PM »
Yup, * means not written by Terry, but Terry considers them to be canonical.

Of the products not deemed canonical, they don't fit Terry's vision of Shadow World. Some weren't even originally intended for Shadow World - I believe the Orgillion Horror was meant to be a CallofCthulhu scenario that got repurposed. Some are perfectly good modules in their own right, but not really Shadow World modules.

Best wishes,
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Offline markc

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Re: Shadow World Canon Books
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2010, 04:14:06 PM »
Again AFIK as you, but I think those were noted in the original post as "not written by Terry, but approved as canon anyway". But I'm not 100% certain.

 Thanks LM
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Offline craggles

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Re: Shadow World Canon Books
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2010, 04:24:58 PM »
Quote
Of the products not deemed canonical, they don't fit Terry's vision of Shadow World. Some weren't even originally intended for Shadow World - I believe the Orgillion Horror was meant to be a CallofCthulhu scenario that got repurposed. Some are perfectly good modules in their own right, but not really Shadow World modules.

Thanks guys.

THat makes sense Nicholas - I suppose I could still use them after I've exhausted all the 'official' adventures - but I'll keep my PCs within Emer and Jaiman for now and not mention far away lands.

Are there any plans to write adventures further afield in the near future? After Emer III of course - or will Emer IV follow next before any other continent?
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Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: Shadow World Canon Books
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2010, 04:41:38 PM »
Quote
Of the products not deemed canonical, they don't fit Terry's vision of Shadow World. Some weren't even originally intended for Shadow World - I believe the Orgillion Horror was meant to be a CallofCthulhu scenario that got repurposed. Some are perfectly good modules in their own right, but not really Shadow World modules.

Thanks guys.

THat makes sense Nicholas - I suppose I could still use them after I've exhausted all the 'official' adventures - but I'll keep my PCs within Emer and Jaiman for now and not mention far away lands.

Are there any plans to write adventures further afield in the near future? After Emer III of course - or will Emer IV follow next before any other continent?

Terry's most recent plans were Emer III followed by Emer IV, interleaved with Guild Adventurer scenarios. Terry has ideas beyond that, but we'll see closer to the time how the Muse strikes him!

Best wishes,
Nicholas
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Offline craggles

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Re: Shadow World Canon Books
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2010, 05:08:50 PM »
Looking through the timeline (yep - I haven't finished reading it all yet), it mentions the Jan of Thuul and the Star Crown Empire of Govon which are covered in the Nomads of the Nine Nations and The Star Crown Empire.

Are these mentioned in the Timeline simply because of the modules above and the decision to in-cononise them came later on after the Atlas 4?

Will these references be dropped in future Atlas versions and potentially any new info on the far away lands be added when any new modules are written?
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Offline egdcltd

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Re: Shadow World Canon Books
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2010, 05:43:19 PM »
Referenced in SWMA3 and the Grand Campaign, if I remember correctly, were Nomads, Kingdom of the Desert Jewel, Star Crown Empire, Demons of the Burning Night and Islands of the Oracle, in addition to Norek and Quelbourne. I doubt there will ever be much contradiction to Islands of the Oracle, given how small the area covered is.
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Offline cdcooley

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Re: Shadow World Canon Books
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2010, 11:45:18 PM »
Terry has ideas beyond that, but we'll see closer to the time how the Muse strikes him!
Terry is filled with wonderful ideas, maybe too many ideas. He gets overwhelmed and then doesn't write any of them down for the rest of us. Of course, he occasionally gets sick and then there's that annoying need to earn money at his real job.

As others have said, canon basically means Terry wrote it, likes it, or at least doesn't find it too out of sync with his vision. I remember an older discussion (probably on the silent tower mailing list) where Terry (after much prompting) separated things into a few more categories like:

  • High Canon: He wrote it (but there still may be things he's changed his mind about a few decades later).
  • Low Canon: Someone else wrote it and he likes it (or at least had already woven it into his vision years ago).
  • Almost Canon: It's different enough that he doesn't want to fully support it (but you'll find references in the atlases).
  • Not Canon: It's doesn't fit his vision or it's just a generic adventure (don't expect to see these mentioned anywhere).

The discussion wasn't that well organized in labeling or even in one giant listing, but over time various people asked about different modules and got responses. The tradition of Rolemaster is that the GM is always free to use or not use anything for a particular campaign. So if you've bought some module and like it, go ahead and use it.

A more practical use of the canon list is for ranking your future purchases. If it's canon, go ahead and buy (at any reasonable price), you'll probably like it. If it's not, don't say you weren't warned if you buy it and are disappointed. On the other hand, the generic adventure modules can be useful. And even the non-canon setting modules can be good. For example "Curse of Kabis" is a good RPG module, but just doesn't fit on Kulthea very well. So if it's a good price I'd still buy them all (and have).

If you get a chance at the Shadow World novels, Stormriders (originally by Roxanne Longstreet, but republished under the house pseudonym of Ian Hammell) is the only one you should consider. It's not canon, but it falls in the "at least it feel like it belongs" category. The one about clocks and swords is an OK story it just doesn't have anything related to Kulthea in it.  The other two use Kulthean places and characters in extremely non-canon ways.

Offline Guillaume

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Re: Shadow World Canon Books
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2010, 10:32:04 AM »
Quote from: craggles

Why are the other books not considered canon?


Canon : books written by Terry or books that had an editorial overview by Terry or books that Terry considers as Canon.

Non Canon : Books written after Terry left the Old Ice, Books that Terry didn't oversee, Books not written by Terry or books that Terry defined as non Canon.

Being non canon doesn't means that the whole book is not to be considered, just that part of it are not right.

The only case I remember of a whole book being non canon is the Orgillion Horror... but well it's Call of Cthulhu à la sauce Kulthea.

The Tales of the Loremasters is a special case, as they are just adventures bunched together with no links between them.
Each of these is a compilation of almost ready to run adventures.
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Offline craggles

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Re: Shadow World Canon Books
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2010, 11:02:13 AM »
Quote
Books written after Terry left the Old Ice

Ah - for some reason, I had assumed that Terry was with old ICE to the end. The fact that he wasn't makes more sense as to why there's quite a few non-canon books.
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Offline DonMoody

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Re: Shadow World Canon Books
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2010, 12:26:33 PM »
A more practical use of the canon list is ...

I think the best use of the canon list is to get a solid handle on how the creator of SW views SW.

There are canon materials I like a lot and there are some I like less (or even dislike! blasphemy!).
Same for the non-canon materials.

But, for me at least, the canon materials give the best view of 'intent' for 'how the world is'.

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Offline Kurgath

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Re: Shadow World Canon Books
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2010, 03:29:00 AM »
These are the Shadow World Canon books (as listed by Matt elsewhere in the forums) -

I have several of them as it happens (through bad luck) and some of the smaller ones seem to be just a collection of small adventures (like Tales of the Loremasters II and The Cyclop's Vale) or not occurring in the 2 main continents of Jaiman and Emer (Like the Nomads of the Nine Nations and the Kingdom of the Desert Jewel which are both set in Thuul). I don't have it but the Star Crown Empire is set in Govon which is also out of the 2 main continents.

Is there anything that's correct in these non-canon books that we can salvage (like cultures, races, customs, creatures, cities, temples etc) or is it all wrong? Presumably, there will be more Shadow World adventures set elsewhere on Kulthea that will replace any info mentioned in the un-canon books?

Hi Craggles

Although those modules you mentioned aren't officially canon, my opinion is that there is still plenty of good stuff in them, and you shlouldn't be afraid to use it, especially if you as the GM want to put a different slant on your own version of Kulthea.

For example, in my version I have the dwarves taking a bit more of a role in things than in the canon material. e.g. I have a colony near Haalkitaine that helped build it, and I also have a colony in the northeast that is based on what is described in Skygiants.

Much of what is in Loremasters I and II regardless of whether it is canon or not has such small potential to infringe on the great scheme of things that you should use it if you like it (especially useful as 'filler' adventures!)

The opposite is true of Gethaena (may have spelt that wrong) which is clashes quite badly with a lot of the key elements.

I even quite like Orgillion........I used it as a side adventure to a mini-campaign I ran based out of Kelfour's Landing in Quellbourne when I wanted a distinct change of pace to my main campaign

So you just need to make your own judgement on it - best to go with whatever is comfortable to you.

K


Offline vroomfogle

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Re: Shadow World Canon Books
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2010, 07:39:32 AM »
Agree with Kurgath.  Some of those other non-official modules aren't bad, I own them all.   I have a bit of a soft spot for Demons of the Burning Night....I just really like that module although it feels nothing like Shadow world.   And if you do venture away from Emer and Jaiman Star Crown Empire and Nomads might be useful.

The dwarven clan in the Grey Mountains near Haalkitaine is canon by the way, being first mentioned in Jaiman.

I should also note that the non-Amthor books in the canon list (Norek, Quellbourne) aren't exactly perfect either.   There are some inconsistencies for instance with names of roads, regions, and city locations listed in Norek as opposed to what is mentioned in Haalkitaine.

Offline egdcltd

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Re: Shadow World Canon Books
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2010, 09:29:56 AM »
The biggest problem with Gethaena is the finale. If you can alter that, and avoid blowing a 120 mile diameter hole in the middle of Uj, it's quite an interesting module.
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Offline Kurgath

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Re: Shadow World Canon Books
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2010, 03:35:49 AM »
Hadn't realised the dwarves near Haalkitaine were canon!......or maybe I did and it was buried in my subconcious somewhere.

 :)

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Re: Shadow World Canon Books
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2010, 06:56:43 AM »
Hi, All,

Interesting as well, that the Jamiani Dwarves "Unlike some of their relations in other lands, Jaimani Dwarves prefer to go beardless, and many are completely bald." ;D

I always told my players that there was an underground parasite that lived on something in the hair. (Which also explained how bad-tempered the dwarves traditionally were!)

All the Best,

Kevin.

Offline Kurgath

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Re: Shadow World Canon Books
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2010, 08:29:59 AM »
My Jaimani dwarves have beards............

I couldn't handle the truth!

Offline OphieM

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Re: Shadow World Canon Books
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2010, 02:40:02 PM »
Unfortunately we can't do canon anymore, and pick and choose from the books. The problem is that we are way ahead of the books in the timeline, somehow, and we've had to make our own Kaitaine, Gethyra, Rhiani, etc. etc. We have our own masters of evil to some extent, though we don't ignore the biggies. It's good to know the canon, but we sort of have our own canon now!