Topic: Feedback on new spell lists

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

I've always had a problem with the Magician's base spell lists because the elements used (fire, earth, light, ice, water and wind) didn't make sense to me, as they didn't seem to possibly form a paradigm on which to base philosophical and physical theories, and the spells inside each list felt incoherent, such as the light list allowing the manipulation of both light and darkness (its apparent opposite). To solve that, I created my own professions, based on elements with which I'm most familiar —the Wood Mage, the Fire Mage, the Earth Mage, the Metal Mage and the Water Mage— and used them for a decade or so. To be honest, they worked very well, especially as I also modified the Astrologer base lists to have them match said elements philosophical theory (I changed them to Divinations, Wyrd Mastery, and especially Earthly Current, a more coherent version of Harmonize Forces, Animal Affinity and Elemental Affinity).
However, as I recently felt a need for a closer version of the Magician, meaning one profession that would manipulate all elements rather than be specialized in one, I designed new spell lists, foremost by mixing already existing ones into more coherent ones. Basically, I'd need a second point of view about them, about their balance, coherency (if some spells don't feel "in agreement" with the others) and general feeling. A few explanations, though:
1) I tried to only have spells of type E and F, as I feel the Magician is such an (offensive) profession and shouldn't have spells of type U, I or the like,
2) Even amidst spells of type F, I tried to avoid spells that "feel" more like utilitarian spells, such as teleport, merge or the like,
3) I tried to avoid duplicating spells, so there's no "Spell I", "Spell II", "Spell V", etc. This is purely choice of mine but I've always hated spell lists that are nothing more than different versions of a few spells (such as the awful Plant Mastery that has four versions of "Speed growth", five of "Plant growth" and four of "Plant control"!)
Any comment is welcome.

P.S. Just ignore the units. 

[Hurin]

It might be a little while before that file is approved, but I look forward to checking it out.

Four of the elements given to Magicians (Earth, Fire, Water, and Wind/Air) make sense, since they are the basic elements of classical cosmology. Light and Ice are the odd ones out there.

Have you taken a look at the Elemental Companion? I really liked that book, and it is full of ideas for expanding elemental spells (although it often does have the Spell I, Spell II, Spell III progression that you dislike).

[Fingolfin80]

I'm very curious to see your list, it has an interesting set of elements (inspired by a more asiatic aproach, I would say). I'm also very interested to see how did you fill the empty slot without the "scaling" spells.

Light and Ice are the odd ones out there.

The couples Light and darkness or Aether and Void vould probably make more sense, but that's really up to your game world. In my setting I use the classic cosmology and I treat Ice and Light as hybrid elements: Ice as an hybrid of water and earth, sice it's solid water, and Light as a hybrid of Fire and Air (a bit more stretched, but works for my cosmogony).

[Fingolfin80]

More specificaly, I have four specialists in elemental magic, each one can cast all but the opposite list and the hybrid list that includes the opposite element:
- A Fire Mage can have Fire Law, Earth Law, Wind Law and Light Law, but cannot use Water Law and Ice Law
- A Water Mage can have Water Law, Earth Law, Wind Law and Ice Law, but cannot use Fire Law and Light Law
- An Earth Mage can have Earth Law, Fire Law, Water Law and Ice Law, but cannot use Wind Law and Light Law
- An Air Mage can have Wind Law, Fire Law, Water Law and Light Law, but cannot use Earth Law and Ice Law
To complete the lists, they all have access to Elemental Summons (of their primary element) from RMSS Essence Companion and to an Elemental Alterations custom list.

I feel that elemental magic is very linked to the setting primary structure and to the way you want magic to work in your world. It's very nature, so to speak. So I always end up tweaking these lists one way or another, more than other Essence lists. In this they pose a challenge similar to Channeling lists, which always require me a lot of work to be adapted because I like the priest and paladin lists to be very thematic for the specific deity (bless you, Channeling Companion).

I don't mean to derange your topic, OLF, I just wanted to point out that Element list are one of the parts of the game that need more tuning by the master to fit in a setting, but it's structural to every chosen system that isn't specifically written for a given setting, not an RM fault.

Waiting for your lists to be approved!

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Four of the elements given to Magicians (Earth, Fire, Water, and Wind/Air) make sense, since they are the basic elements of classical cosmology. Light and Ice are the odd ones out there.

The problem is that ice and lighe are part of the elemental system, and they break everything. As such, we have fire being opposed by both water and ice in three lists, air being opposed by earth in two list, and light being opposed by darkness in the same list!

Have you taken a look at the Elemental Companion? I really liked that book, and it is full of ideas for expanding elemental spells (although it often does have the Spell I, Spell II, Spell III progression that you dislike).

Oh, I have the E.C. and especially enjoy its chapter about elemental theories. To be honest, I don't necessarily ask for an historical elemental system, such as the classical system or the wuxing, and am perfectly comfortable with a fantasy one, but I would want an actual elemental system, with its whole cosmology, and what derive from it, may it be the philosophical system, the medical system, etc. The problem with the E.C. is that it has such a system, or at least basics for such a system, with its lesser basic, greater basic, compound, super-compound and complex elements, since it ties all of them with the others, explain the structure of the universe through them, associate them with feelings, materials, etc., but it chose such a complex system that it was probably too hard to have rules managing it. After all, all in all, for all the complexity of this elemental system, all elemental professions (of different elements) are just the same, regardless of the elements, with just a few minor skill costs difference according to the profession's main element, with the same spell lists. Similarly, all spell lists, regardless of the elements, are just the same.
The F&I is better, keeping it with the RM2 original elements, and gives out an elemental theory trying to unit them, which is exactly what I wanted. I tried working with it, but I wasn't able to completely grasp it (the presence of darkness not fully being an element yet having its own list may have factored in it…)
So in the end, I used the wuxing and created my own professions and spell lists. :p

I don't mean to derange your topic, OLF, I just wanted to point out that Element list are one of the parts of the game that need more tuning by the master to fit in a setting, but it's structural to every chosen system that isn't specifically written for a given setting, not an RM fault.

I don't really agree. I personally think that a game system should have its own coherent system that it works without having to be changed, especially about the elemental system since it's pretty much a staple of fantasy settings that your spell users will throw fireballs, lightning, etc. The wild card "you must adapt it to your own world" is not an excuse to me, because you always do, each, any and all rules. For spell lists, though, because they relate to each other, it's important to have such a system established because, logically, there will be spell lists managing such elemental interactions. For the matter, it's what F&I did, even though I wasn't satisfied with it.

[Fingolfin80]

I don't really agree. I personally think that a game system should have its own coherent system that it works without having to be changed, especially about the elemental system since it's pretty much a staple of fantasy settings that your spell users will throw fireballs, lightning, etc. The wild card "you must adapt it to your own world" is not an excuse to me, because you always do, each, any and all rules. For spell lists, though, because they relate to each other, it's important to have such a system established because, logically, there will be spell lists managing such elemental interactions. For the matter, it's what F&I did, even though I wasn't satisfied with it.

Well, yes, but technically it does work on its own, it's not broken or something like that.

It just doesn't adapt to my fantasy worlds because I use a system that implies an element "opposition" of sorts, which you also seem to imply. But this is not mandatory in any way, in real life you can quench fire with water, ice or carbon dioxide, neither of which is considered an element anymore. I know, we are speaking of fantasy here, but even in fantasy settings this opposition it's not a "granted" feature: no trace of it in Tolkien, Howard, Lovecraft, Martin, LeGuin (as far as I remember) or even in RPG settings like Warhammer.
For the Light and Darkness on the same list, it's just that darkness is not considered an element on it's own, but the absence of light and so you create it by manipulating light (i.e. stopping light from entering a zone).
If you eliminate the "opposition" concept, the magic user can throw fire, lightning, etc. with the base system without any problem, just like in any other system. What do you percieve as not coherent (not polemic here, just need clarifications)?

On elemental companion: I found great material in it on many aspects, but the triads theory is for me an attempt to give a systematic theory to something that was born without, ending up in a farraginous and convoluted explanation that i really dislike. A better solution, in my opinion, is adding elements lists and say that you pick six that are coherent with how the elements work in your world. Maybe with suggestion: if you want classic five element approach pick these lists, if you want a wuxing approach pick these, you want light and darkness as differet elements pick these, etc.
A similar work was very well done in Channeling Companion with the priest list, if you don't have it it's really a great book. It's RMFRP, but I don't see great compatibility issue with RM2. It essetially listed a lot of priest lists and gave you an idea of which six pick for any type of deity. I would really have appreciated an Elemental Companion made in this way.

P.S. Just ignore the units. 

I have to admit that this comment raised my curiosity, and I for one will not ignore them 

[brole]

The new spell lists sound good it would be interesting to see them.

I use a lore where the Rolemaster Flows of Essence are composed of a spectrum of the elements in the same way as white light in the real world can be split into a spectrum of colors through a prism.

This forms the 'physics' of how a magic user can use different elements, he/she is filtering the desired element out of the essence flow and into their desired spell effect. So for non-elemental spells they just use the flow as a whole.

Opposing elements are on different ends of the spectrum.

Where a PC/NPC is specialized or elemental they can only use their chosen element.

[Peter R]

@OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol do you by any chance have HARP College of Magics? That has a coherent process for creating any spell you like. I use it all the time when players come to me with a spell description that they would like to research. I just use 1PP = 1level.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

@OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol do you by any chance have HARP College of Magics?

Unfortunately, no, I don't. It sounds interesting but how compatible is it with RM2? Since I don't play HARP, I would have no use for it if it cannot be easily used for RM2...

[MisterK]

The standard Spell Law elemental lists could be part of a D&D-like elemental system if you included several others (depending on your take, from two to ten) :
The AD&D elemental system had the four basic elements (fire, earth, water, air) plus positive and negative planes, and eight compound elements obtained by "mixing" to basic or one basic and postive/negative, thus creating twelve more (smoke, ice, ooze and magma by combining basic elements, ash, vacuum, salt and dust by combining one basic element with the negative, and radiance, lightning steam and mineral by combining one basic element with the positive).
The new D&D elemental system has the four basic elements (same) plus four compound elements (magma, ooze, ice and ash, created by combination of two basic elements).

I understand your point about darkness, especially since this logic could be applied to fire (cold is the absence of heat, so it should be included in a fire list ?). As they are, and even if you consider the classic occidental alchemical system (four elements), ice and light should not be there (ice being a part of water and light being a part of fire (for light proper) and air (for lightning).

Instead of creating two additional elements, I would rather create two spell lists for each of the four classic elements (this is already the idea behind the Elemental Companion lists, and some of the open/closed Essence lists of the Essence Companion - they introduce more utility spells, which is nice for a class that should be about *manipulating* the elements and not merely be a mobile artillery piece). Then, I would have each magician choose three elements out of the four for their base lists, with perhaps a talent to enhance their focus element. This would recreate the classic four-element system, but you have to rewrite the lists almost from scratch.

I would advise, in this case, to have a look at the Ars Magica system, which includes the four elements (as part of the ten forms) and provides a great number of ideas for spells in this particular occidental medieval system.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

MisterK, I like your idea of keeping the base lists that make sense in a classical elemental system, meaning "Water Law", "", "Earth Law", "Wind Law" (that should probably be renamed "Air Law") and "Fire Law", and create a second list for each of them (so I could probably keep "Ice Law" to complement Water, have one only light-oriented to complement Fire, one only lightning-oriented to complement Air... and find something to complement Earth). I may do so in the future.

Anyway, the approval is taking longer than expected so I'll start creating my NPC (the very reason why I wanted a new profession  ) Since one may not start to develop ranks in Directed spell before one has actually learnt the matching spell, please be kind to me when making comments about them and their levels. 

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

P.S. Just ignore the units. 

I have to admit that this comment raised my curiosity, and I for one will not ignore them 

Since brole also asked about them...

The basic unit for length is the narz, whose abbreviation is "nr" and symbol is "¤", and is the smallest width Dream&Reality allows the Mists of Creation, that separates the Lands of Dream and Reality, to be. Its multiples are the anarz (anr / ¤a), henarz (hnr / ¤h), kinarz (knr / ¤k), whilst its divisions are the denarz, cenarz and minarz. Ten kinarz form a mretz (mr / !¤), from which derive the amretz (amr / !¤a), the hemretz (hmr / !¤h) and the kimretz (kmr / !¤k). Ten kimretz form a lritz (lr / ¤!), from which derive the alritz (alr / ¤!a), the helritz (hlr / ¤!h) and the kilritz (klr / ¤!k). One lritz thus equals 100 millions narz.

The other measure of importance is the basic measure of time, the versetz (vz), which equals for how long Time sighed before starting Her part in the job of creating the universe. Thirteen versetz make one nonatz (nz), sixty-five nonatz make a kroim (krm), sixty-five kroims make a miletz (mz), twenty-six miletz make a day, thirteen days make a week, three weeks make a month. Each month is for how long one of the Divine Beasts (what they are depends on the religion, though all agree there are five Divine Beasts) carries the world around space; thirteen months make a year.

Then you have the unit of weight, the regz (rz). Its multiples are the argz, the hergz, the kirgz, and its divisions are the dergz, the cergz and the mirgz. One regz is the maximum weight of one's sins that Life&Death would consider as "sinless".